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> S30Z vs AE86, Devil Z S30 vs Fujiwara AE86
 
Who do you think will win a race in AKAGI? (See details on this post)
Winner TOYOTA TRUENO (AE86) [ 90 ]  [52.94%]
Winner DATSUN 240Z (S30) [ 80 ]  [47.06%]
Total Votes: 170
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Silver_Z
Posted on Sep 13 2007, 04:55 PM
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Here's the racing details:

COURSE:
>>AKAGI, as we all know, is made known for its high speed sections and moderate-high speed corners; less gradient downhill slopes and less tighter hairpins compared to the highly technical-skill inducing Akina Pass.

CARS:
>>DEVIL Z S30: Fully independent suspension (its real, its true), Turbo Charged Engine, power 700-800+ HP, heavier with 1200+ KGs, set-up for some grip.
>>FUJIWARA TOFU SHOP AE86: Fully independent front suspension, rigid axle rear suspension (its real, its true too), NA (naturally aspirated) High-RPM engine, power at 240+ HP, lighter with 940 KGs, set-up for drift.

WEATHER:
>>Dry Weather

TIME:
>>Night (you may consider Takumi using Blind Attack)

TRAFFIC:
>>None

OTHER FACTORS
>>Let's consider what Takumi's skill makes for Initial D in mountain passes, and Akio's skill makes for The Wangan Expressway. Akagi Pass is a balance of cornering and straight sections. Takumi is made known for his techniques like gutter jumps and hooks, as well as Blind Attack, Akio's good with his smoothened out control in order to well-handle the S30. If you know of any other tricks these two drivers have, you can use 'em and share us some explanation.

You're Opinions Please!
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Youhei
Posted on Sep 13 2007, 08:16 PM
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Hmm... interesting... i wanna see the real race myself :lol:

basically i don't know much about cars tho. I prefer S30Z because It has good top speed compared to AE86. And good acceleration. AE86 would own S30Z in corners.
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Trafford Devil
Posted on Sep 13 2007, 09:52 PM
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hmm... this is an interesting one, i would say the ae86 because takumi is a much better driver than akio, although if you take the drivers out of the equation the raw power of the devil z is not to be underestimated. however i'm not sure as to how well the z would react to all those corners, i.e. corners=chances to kill akio.
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Silver_Z
Posted on Sep 13 2007, 11:22 PM
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I’ve tried to make as much winning simulation into this idea but it seems I myself can’t find a final answer to this poll I started.

The AE86 indeed has a lighter body and thus require little braking upon entry into a corner. The S30Z- heavier will require earlier braking. The S30Z with its amazing acceleration, say from point A to point B can be done so quickly, but due to that same acceleration prowess, the earlier he has to brake, he’s probably on the next corner that considering the weight he’s got, he needs to consider a longer braking distance. When the two cars take the corner, the AE86 can be drifted. Let’s not compare this drifting technique with the ones used on D1GP because that is Show-Drift, and is kind of slow, that’s true and Keiichi Tsuchiya proved that on the “Drift Bible”. High Speed Drift is the epitome of racing drift; this is the technique that Tsuchiya has perfected, that when he started using them on some Japan GT races, he got banned. Only a few can match this speed and insane driving control, and those guys that banned him were piss-poor-slap-sticks. With the anime Initial D, only Takumi and/or Bunta portrays the skill Tsuchiya has. Back with the S30Z, a 1972 model car is really old. Despite the fact that the S30Z uses a strut design similar to a modern day car, like the FD3S, the S30Z’s materials, geometry, and positioning of the different suspension components is still old. For Akio to take on the Akagi hairpins, he’ll have to slow down bearing in mind his car’s suspension and weight, and a heavy foot on the gas pedal can bring trouble. This is most probable where Takumi will overtake. Akio will have to consider these factors on the beginning and mid-section of Akagi pass. But around the final section of the Akagi pass, there’s this straight with a few bends and there’s no more downhill slope. Almost similar to the roads of the Wangan Expressway. Lightweightedness becomes useless and Akio’s S30Z can accelerate throughout… the question is, how far has Takumi gone with the corners and took the lead before Akio reaches this said straight… But… with the S30s almost 800+ hp, as if a top-fuel drag racer, which could probably catch the finish line first… Or maybe Takumi will win carrying a 3 second or less difference… This 3 second or less difference can be outdone… Sure wished we can all see the real race!

Maybe there’s some of you can make a “simulated judgement” with the factors: dry weather, and night time race in identifying who’s the winner. This poll just came out of my head on my way to work… amazing what boredom of going to work can bring. Opinions? keep it coming... Sorry if this answer is really wrong... i just have to let go of this car craving. (w00t)
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suv_drift
Posted on Sep 14 2007, 03:45 AM
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Full tie.

The S30Z have the advantages on non-curves, AE86 have the advantage in curves.

TO choose or not to choose..... that's the question.
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eastcoastdrifter
Posted on Sep 14 2007, 07:07 AM
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sometimes too much horse power is a negative... the sprinter will win in my books
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marcotierro
Posted on Sep 14 2007, 07:12 AM
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If it's just a comparison between the cars, then the S30 will definitely win. Power to weight ratio of a twin turbo-charged S30 is way better compared to an AE86. Response would also be good because it has a twin turbo set-up. The only factor that could affect who wins would be the driver. If both drivers are good, then the S30 will win.

If Akio and Takumi were involved, then Takumi will have a chance to win since he has more experience than Akio. He drives the mountain pass every day and he knows his AE86 well.

If the result would be a tie in the first two rounds, then the AE86 will win in the third round. Since the AE86 is lighter, its tires will last longer. Tires are very important in racing. Even changes in tire pressure can significantly alter the behavior of a car. That is why if whoever owns the S30, he should win the first two rounds, that is if changing of tires is prohibited.

This post has been edited by marcotierro on Sep 14 2007, 07:24 AM
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fettman53
Posted on Sep 14 2007, 04:18 PM
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Well, the track is well set up for a normal Z with those specifications, but we have to remember that this Z is out to kill Akio... :blink:

So...Takumi would most likely win. Especially if he has advice from Ryosuke.
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zgod
Posted on Sep 14 2007, 04:41 PM
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well akio get some time in at hakone so ill go with him
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Dark Magician Ka..
Posted on Sep 14 2007, 10:35 PM
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A very good question. Let's break it down between the two.

Similarities:

1. Takumi and Akio are great drivers who can adapt to both highways and mountains.

2. Takumi and Akio have very great support on their respective sides. They can get help on settings and techniques when necessary.

Takumi has Project D (Ryousuke, Keisuke, etc.) and Bunta.

Akio has Kou Tominaga (who is the ECU setting specialist), Yuichi Takagi (the genius responsible for the body of the car), and Jun Kitami (the one behind the crazy engines.)

Now the several things that probably set them apart:

1. Takumi is VERY familiar with Akagi since he has been in Project D for a while. Akio is obviously NOT familiar with the course.

2. Akio can fix and tune own car to adapt to Akagi alone if he had to, while Takumi really can't. That means Akio is familiar with his car inside and out (the settings, functions, body, how he drives it as the Z is, etc.)

Takumi COULD fix and tune his own car to his advantage as well, but there has been little examples of him doing so, is there?

Since Akio can adapt to mountain passes and fix his own car and tune it to where his Z may be comfortable to deal with the environment of Akagi, I'd say Akio's Z may win this one.

This post has been edited by Dark Magician Kamiya on Sep 14 2007, 10:38 PM
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Organic Zero
Posted on Sep 15 2007, 12:28 PM
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I went on thinking about this challenge, and in the end, on my conclusions, i think Aiko would loose, badly. I can reason this on 3 topics.

1 - Machine.

The topic poster already stated the mechanical aspects for each ride. But, we must remember that Aiko's Z is tuned for highway racing, not touge racing. True that Aiko both on the manga and anime were seeing SPEEDING on a touge, but how often did he RACE on a touge?

Fujiwara on the other hand has a a full touge setup, both adapted for race drift and grip, meaning that he has a car good enought to hold a good attack on different levels and types of conners. Being those fast or slow ones...

Taking this into consideration, and placing it on the course regardless the drivers techinque. The AE86 would disappear from the Z sight in a matter of curves. The Z would only be able to catch up with it at the bottom of the touge, with a very small chance to overtake it.

2 - Technique

Now the plot thickens, Aiko, is a highway racer, a good one. He knows how to take curves correctly at very high speeds and has a good throttle control to overtake without loosing too much of his car balance. (eg. changing lanes). But on a touge, the best weapow you have against an opponent is not that, it's braking. Knowing the exact place were you start braking, how much you brake and where you stop. as well the best way to take on the conner and which changes you can make during all of that. He doesn't have a training for that i can say.

Fujiwara on the other side is on his playground. He is not what you can call a average touge racer. During the 4th stage of ID, he was basically being trained as a pro driver. so his skills are way ahead of the normal touge racer. He knows well his car, and can easily adapt and counter adapt any technique shown to him. When behind his opponent he knows how to pressure him, and how to take advantage from both the opponent mistakes and the tack to overtake. When he is ahead of the opponent, he knows how to keep himself cool under pressure and make the AE86 looks like it's 2 lane wide car, never giving a opening to the opponent to pass.

I must remind that Aiko never actually raced someone on a touge, so this would be a totally different experience to him, which would leads us to the point 3....

3 - Physique.

Facing an extremely good driver on an environment that you are not used to be would turn this race into a nightmare for Aiko. He not only would have to deal with;

- a car that is not tuned to touge racing, and, if it, it would have a different feel from all aspects considering what he was used to drive
- a track which differs from what he is used to drive. With less speed sections, blind corners and unknown brake points. Going downhill at insane speeds is scary as hell already, let alone racing against someone.
- racing someone as good as Fujiwara, who can put a lot of pressure onto him, carring it to a mistake that would lead him to a defeat. Or trying to keep up with him, wich would be a hard as well and intimidating due the pace that the AE86 can put up on the downhill...

in the end, he wouldn't be able to extract 100% of his car, giving more advantage to Fujiwara.

When you merge everything up, no matter how much Aiko ADAPTS himself to the touge, it's not the same kind of ability that Fujiwara has, they are on different levels and characteristics, being one totally devoted to touge racing, and another one totally devoted to highway racing who once in a while stroll through a touge... let's admit, it's not the same thing.

I think this sums up it... ;)

This post has been edited by Organic Zero on Sep 15 2007, 12:35 PM
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Jon Michael
Posted on Sep 15 2007, 08:51 PM
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Wow, someone has no idea how you race on the touge in real life. A car with 800hp = DEATH on the touge. I don't care how skilled you are, not even Keichi Tsuchiya would take an 800hp 240Z on the touge. Akio would ditch it over the side of the mountain on the first turn. Don't believe all the NFS and Kaido Battle games you play, you CANNOT go into a turn at 80-90mph and drift through it perfectly.

This question is pointless, the Devil Z is setup for highway racing. It's the same if you flipped it around and said who would win on the wangan, the Devil Z with 800hp or the Trueno with it's 220hp drift setup. You are taking one car COMPLETELY out of it's perfect environment and putting it somewhere it was NEVER meant to race.

Akio has never driven touge before, especially against a racer who is at pro-driver level. He may be an incredible highway racer, who can adapt to his car. But, that is with the techniques and principles of highway racing. The two are COMPLETELY different.

Akio isn't a touge driver, simple as that. And, Takumi isn't a wangan driver...if he was would he really be driving a Trueno, LOL.

The two worlds do NOT go together, simple as that. Stop dreaming about it, it's pointless.
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Silver_Z
Posted on Sep 16 2007, 10:46 PM
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C'mon Jon, do we really have to put this forum topic to an endpoint? I think that's were the fun begins... the difficulty of, well, just as you've said, "putting 2 worlds together"

I don't really think that 800bhp on the touge would mean death, if a driver knows the idea of how much HPs he has on tap, then he'll take more precaution yet still keep the car at optimum... just like Formula 1 drivers racing at Monaco (a very tight city racing circuit in Europe)... driving at the limit, maximum power, and steel balls!

;D

I like the sight of lengthy replies... i like reading people's racing simulations! Keep those opinions coming...
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Organic Zero
Posted on Sep 17 2007, 08:43 PM
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Silver, if you have GT4, try to do this test, it can gives you a rough idea about what Aiko would have to deal with. Get a Supra, last gen preferably. Tune it to the max, should be something about 1000ps, set your tires to sport ones, no racing tire cheating :P and turn off ASM and TCS.

Then try to race down Costa di Amafi wich can feel a bit like a touge, or even worse, take on Cote d'Azur (monaco)

by start you see how painful is to keep a proper throttle control over the low speed curves, even on high gears, with the tires spinning out of control at every little blip on the pedal. Also, once you get your speed going on the downhill sections, you will possibly feel how unappropriated the 1000ps is, as you will never be able to take advantage of it's gearing...

record your time and do it again, with a car with half or less PS and check your results...

Now, imagine the same thing with the Z, considering that it's times older than the supra, doesn't share the same technology, but has almost the same power output (if you compare power/weight ratio), you will probably be able to feel what Aiko would experience under such situation. :)

i think a fair situation would be taking both to a track, something like tsukuba...

This post has been edited by Organic Zero on Sep 17 2007, 08:49 PM
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Silver_Z
Posted on Sep 17 2007, 08:54 PM
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Thanks there dude! This should be done better with steering wheel-pedals-racing seats. Much like Logitech GT4 control set...

Thumbs-Up!!!

;D
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MaximumNinja
Posted on Sep 17 2007, 09:25 PM
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QUOTE (Silver_Z @ Today at 8:54 PM)
Thanks there dude!  This should be done better with steering wheel-pedals-racing seats.  Much like Logitech GT4 control set...

Thumbs-Up!!!

;D

Theres a sparco seat that has metal bars that can support 1 of the sterring wheels and pedels XD

(IMG:http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r137/spartan1o5/0646544776586398.jpg)

you can actually take the seat and equip it into a car XD

This post has been edited by MaximumNinja on Sep 17 2007, 09:25 PM
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wangan_sti
Posted on Sep 20 2007, 12:04 AM
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Hard to decide, but due to the track being less techniqual n less tight n Akios car being 3x as much as takumi. Akio has a better chance at winning if he has the right suspension set up of the car. ;D . Athough overal the driver- i want to see Oki n Bunta reace ;D ;D ;D
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Silver_Z
Posted on Sep 20 2007, 04:08 PM
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Add Tatsuya Shima vs Ryosuke Takahashi, Reina Akikawa vs Kyoko (ID4; linked to Keisuke during Saitama Races...) ;) This will measure car setup and driver performance just like you're idea ;) Cool with it! ;D
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projectdfan
Posted on Sep 20 2007, 05:04 PM
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idk, the S30z has a lot of power behind his car. remember what ryosuke said about power. having too much power is like an double edged sword. jus when you start to pull away, the corner appears.



jon micheal. in kaido battle games, having too much power wear out your brakes and tires.i try to stay balance. but, there are some courses that have alot of striaght a ways. i try to stick with one car for touge, then other cars to use during categories races.
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projectdfan
Posted on Sep 20 2007, 05:06 PM
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oh! takumi would owwnnn aiko on akagi!!
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R_E_X
Posted on Sep 20 2007, 06:15 PM
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:)

Hm, i want to see it myself

how Bunta's son fight against Hell's mechanic Kitami Jun's car...

for drifting, i'm sure Takumi will won, but don't expect much when it comes for highway racing...Akio will deffinitely outrun hachi-roku

in the end, same as Kitami Jun compared to Fujiwara Bunta...both of em has their own speciallities and place

kinda weird if you ask me, seeing Takumi race in highway, or seeing Akio do drifting on mountain passes
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Force Fed Mopar
Posted on Sep 21 2007, 12:03 PM
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Takumi, he has more experience, drives the mountains everyday, knows exactly how his car handles. Akio is good to be sure, not like Fujiwara though. He has crashed at least twice, and only has experience in Wangan racing, not much in the twisties.
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The J
Posted on Sep 21 2007, 12:36 PM
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I myself have done the fantasy fullfillment race in many videogames. I present my results. I was the driver for both vehicles and competed with the ghost of the other car when available. For fairness for hitting walls when the runs were done I considered anything in red damage for Forza to be considered an automatic loss and any penalty time over 5 seconds in drift to be an automatic loss.

Forza1: Fujimikaido Pt to Pt downhill- winner Devil Z. Number of races to yield result 10.

DevilZ: 7 /Fujiwara Tofu Shop 86: 3

Note: The Devil Z's power is overwhelming I couldn't find Akio's model so I swapped an RB26 and gave it 715 hp with the best non race tires I could find and the works for handling upgrade. the 86's specs are easy to find and I custumized them according to the post engine swap specs with an Altezza engine since the high rev is unavailable. The only times the Devil Z lost was because the car "killed" me and got into unrecoverable slides. Fairly consistent with the results we see in the Manga. Before you ask if I made the 86 competitive enough- this particular one beats my 380 hp R32 skyline time consistently.

Tokyo Xtreme Racer Drift 2/ Kaido Battle 3: Akagi downhill dry- winner DevilZ
DevilZ: 9/ 86:1
Akagi Downhill wet- winner Fujiwara Tofu Shop 86
DevilZ: 0/ 86:10!!

This was done with the 86 at "max specs" mostly other than- no rollcage since we don't see takumi use one, no full lightweight reduction because he still has airconditioning and a stereo and the Devil Z was maxxed out. The Devil Z dominated in dry for the most part simply due to the amount of power you could apply in straights. It didn't matter if you gripped corners slowly then hammered down on straights. The problem was that the tires like in Forza gave out sooooo much faster on the Z. By the time you were at the bottom it felt like you were driving a jet ski not a car. The loss of the DevilZ in the first run is attributed to the loss of tire grip in the dry condition. In the wet the Devil Z only made it down the mountain ONCE! and that was because I was half throttle through turns. Every single other time it ploughed me into walls. The 86 didn't seem to have too much trouble negotiating it other than getting out of oversteer mode.
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Organic Zero
Posted on Sep 25 2007, 10:16 AM
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Yo J, when you raced the cars on ghost mode, the opponent car was pass through ( you could pass your car through it) or not?

if yes, you would be basically doing a time attack and not a duel :P

on duels, the one who goes ahead can protect his position by several ways alas the one who goes on the rear can force the one ahead to commit mistakes...
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DEX
  Posted on Sep 25 2007, 03:24 PM
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AE86 of course in both the mangas or shows they all do races that has to deal with corners and Takumi is the king of corners.
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